I think this guy is pretty funny!
I like that he qualifies himself (I don’t know Wing Chun) and appreciates that there may be Wing Chun fighters who don’t do the stupid things he is parodying.
I’d like to tell him, the reason everyone is doing Wing Chun vs Boxing is that we realize that most fighters we may face will be doing either some real boxing or some half-assed “I saw it in a movie” boxing.
The most popular attacks on the street are sloppy wide “hooks” and fearful, range finding jabs.
So we Wing Chun people like to see what we can do about those techniques. But there is a big difference between people who learned how to box watching movies and screwing around with their equally untrained friends in Junior High and a real boxer who has speed, timing, experience, and knows how to close the gap.
Wong Shun Leung felt Western boxers were our most dangerous opponents and I agree. The only hitch for boxers is out on the streets there are no hand wraps and gloves – they are used to these things and can easily damage their hands, while a good Wing Chun guy has conditioned their hands. And a really smart Wing Chun guy has trained against properly executed boxing techniques.
I’m getting ready to start doing some video stuff myself and this is an area I would like to address. Hopefully I can get my friend (a former pro boxer) to help me examine this Wing Chun vs Boxing subject (you out there, G?).
I saw this video before and the this vs that argument is so silly. No one fights like that. There are countless video of pro fighters, MMA ect looking technically like little school girls because of adrenal stress or flight or fight response. I believe this is why Wing Chun is so powerful. It programs you to act automatically before the adrenal stress kicks in and you freeze up. I think that other video with the Wong Shung Leung student pretty much sums it up.
Wow had to post again because there’s so much wrong with this video I don’t know where to begin. Who wants to take a punch? Isn’t that the whole point of training is to not take punches? You don’t block with bong sau and you don’t strike like that with LAN sau. So it’s back to the TMA vs Sport argument and you know how that ends.
I think his whole point is not to demo Wing Chun (he admittedly doesn’t know any) but to show how silly it is to demonstrate Wing Chun beating boxing by people who don’t know how to box. I posted this because I agree and feel like we need to acknowledge the bad representatives of our art and start putting up quality stuff.
Although probably nothing can stop the excited but naive from demoing their “skills” in their sixth month of training.
Agreed. Why the comparison though? It’s like comparing a screwdriver to a hammer then asking which is better. It makes no sense. The other problem is how do you acknowledge the bad representatives when all you have to go on is a demo?
Well, like I said in the post, I think the main thing you’ll run into in the real world is bad to adequate boxing and bad to adequate wrestling.
So you want to train for that.
I’m going to make some videos and I will make a point to find the best boxer I can to demo with.
So many people who don’t know what they are doing “demoing” its effectiveness against this or that lame half-assesed, slow, weak attack. So many wooden and compliant partners.
Acknowledging the bad representatives is something we in Wing Chun have a problem with, if we want our art to have a good rep and not be bashed as bullshit. I’m not losing sleep over it but it does bug me. As I’ve said elsewhere, its like having everyone say your wife is ugly. You know she’s beautiful and what do you care what they think, but it bugs a little bit! I love my Wing Chun! Don’t call it bullshit!
Makes me want to get in the ring! But I’m 51! I’d love to get some 15 year old kid with good genes and train him in WC like an Olympic hopeful – like Cus D’Amato with Tyson. And give him a good grounding in BJJ and Greco-Roman takedown defense. Then let him loose on the UFC and see what happens? But I know this still might not work, because we are taking away so much from WC by putting it in gloves and constraining it with rules!
But – dammit – I want everyone to acknowledge Wing Chun’s beauty and sports competition is the only outlet for comparison these days!
No more beimo. And is it really worth beimo? WSL blinded some guy in one eye! Was that worth it? Part of me says yes, part no. People die and are mutilated in sports all the time, but should we overcome the ego on these issues. Part of me aspires to rise above it, part of me wants to crush the competition!
So true. Look forward to the vid.
I would have to say the reason why BOXING or any other hard combat art beats wing chun…is not so much because the art is superior but because the practitioners are superior. The culture and atmosphere is superior.
In wing chun and many other traditional dojo type martial arts, you typically find a commercialized representation of the art where instruction is heavily watered down and taught to students in order for them to pass some belt-color test. The students have very little incentive to condition and improve themselves. Many of them, learning the art for SELF-DEFENSE and not even for fighting. And that’s exactly what you get. A bunch of “trained” but still very untested, unrefined, unevolved, inexperienced practitioners.
In boxing, you have guys that came into the gym with a streetfight already. And no, they are not “tough guys”, it’s just what they do. Fighting and confidence are not a big deal for many of them, they got that down easily. And now you pit them against each other regularly for hard sparring…it doesn’t take long before they start to get into incredible condition and sharpen themselves quickly. It doesn’t take long before you have a truly well-adapted battle-hardened fighter on your hands. Sure, if you put him in a streetfight, a boxer might not know how to kick and grab and all that…but he’s still got confidence in himself, incredible conditioning and reflexes, and one heavily refined weapon guaranteed to knock you out.
If wing chun guys wanted to improve themselves and their art, they should definitely step into a boxing gym and see how “practitioners that actually fight” train.
I think a lot of what you say is true but you need to be careful about broad generalizations.
Just like this guy is pointing out that many of these Wing Chun demos are by guys who know nothing about boxing, people from other styles (boxing, Muay Thai, etc) who haven’t trained in Wing Chun (or even every approach to Wing Chun) don’t know what they are talking about either.
This is the essence of Wong Shun Leung Wing Chun. Wing Chun and its training methods were developed in an era when you would make your bones in the War – that’s where you tested your skills. The crucible was on the street, so to speak. In the modern era, that “opportunity” became harder to come by. They started doing beimo (challenge fighting) to take the place of actual combat.
But you already had a bunch of people learning the art who weren’t interested in beimo – they just wanted to learn the art for fun or a vague “self defense” reason.
Wong Shun Leung was a fighter. He was trained as a Western boxer. When beaten by a Wing Chun guy, he was convinced in the genius of the system but approached trained Western Boxing style, doing lots of conditioning and then testing himself in beimo.
Gary Lam, one of WSL’s top students, also tested himself in challenge matches and in Muay Thai fights.
WSL and Gary Lam both handed down their knowledge and training methods to us. The progression is static drills to moving drills to Chi Sao (skills development) to Gwoh Sau (unrestrained bursts of random actions in close contact), which can be launched from San Sao (one arm touching as in Enter the Dragon), Lap Sao, or Chi Sao position.
These approaches, plus ancillary drills like the pole, the knives, and the dummy, will produce a very dangerous fighter.
I think we all have ways to get there, they are just different.
All styles can produce dangerous fighters. The problem in comparisons (which the UFC didn’t solve) is that few these days are willing to go all the way to test their respective arts. If we put on gloves and step into the ring with boxer’s rules, is that really a fair test of my system? Doesn’t that put the boxer at an advantage, since that training with that equipment and those rules are how he trains?
And ultimately, as I’ve often said, the only real test is a sudden street fight. And then we know who would win on that day in that room. The best way to get there will always be a point of contention. The best range, the best techniques, the best strategies, will always be a point of contention.
But, hey, I respect boxing and their “sweet science” and I respect any person, man or woman, who puts in the time and effort to improve themselves and make themselves into a person who can stand up to violence without flinching – we need as many people like that in the world as we can get.
And I think there is the problem right there, many people who do wing chun aren’t looking to fight and so the art has become diluted to fit their casual/recreational needs. It’s not hurting the art in anyway but does make it hard to preserve and evolve the techniques and strategies of the art in this modern age.
When I said “boxing beats wing chun”, I didn’t mean that the art of boxing is superior…my mistake, for which I must apologize. What I meant was that it is more common nowadays to find good fighters in boxing than to find good fighters in wing chun. I would dare say that the average boxer is very much experienced, capable and willing to fight whereas the average wing chun practitioner is not.
Was that your video?
I don’t know that much about boxing but I think you are correct about most WIng Chun students not being fighters. They say there are over two million worldwide. I’ve met a few hundred and would only be concerned about fighting maybe 10.
Its funny – Wing Chun has been touted as a system you could learn quick, but I think that was as compared to learning kung fu in China back in the day, when they used to make you jump through hoops and pay a lot of money and kiss a lot of ass for the secrets.
So it would take ten years to develop any skill and you would maybe never get the secrets (structure, taking position).
I’ve heard people who know what they are talking about (fighters) suggest you would do well to learn boxing or Muay Thai if you need to know how to defend yourself ASAP. You can learn the whole thing in a year. Then its a matter of developing the skills. But they are dependent on youth and strength.
But the same people feel Wing Chun, learned correctly, used savagely, is the ultimate street fighting art, which can be developed well into the 60s and be a big equalizer for life.
Wing Chun takes a long time to learn and it only comes together in the end, after two or three years with the right teacher, with Chi Sao (which is compliant training, like jab jab cross pad drills in boxing) and then with Gwoh Sao, which can only be done with another player at your level if you are going to avoid getting seriously injured.
But I will tell you – I wish I could bring everyone to see my Sifu or my Sigung to experience their skill, their power. Its no opinion, its a fact. They would fuck up most opponents, period. Its a little frightening when you feel it, like almost getting hit by a bus, feeling that force slam into you, or clip you lightly. Like being swatted lightly by a lion and knowing it cut decapitate you if it got serious.
It would be a mistake to believe all boxers don’t train their hands to accept impact outside of gloves. It would also be a mistake to assume all boxers use just a full front fist. Some do. Some 2 knuckle. Some 3 knuckle just like WC, which is what I always did. Some guys have hands like stone.
There is this semi myth that people always break their hands when they punch. Well I never did and I bounced them off enough faces. Not my problem if people hit the skull. Bad tool for that target. Work the accuracy. Bust it on a jaw? I ever did but I had a friend that did so. Knocked the other guy out at the same time.
Anyway, great blog. Great insights. Please keep writing about Wing Chun. Not all boxers think WC is shit. Their is great brilliance in it.
Thanks,
Bill
Thanks Bill – yeah, so much of a fight is random and chaos. It only makes sense that boxers would experience similar hand development/conditioning from all the hitting of the heavy bag. Of course Dempsey and many of the old timers hit elbow down pinky down. It would be interesting to gather a bunch of data and get some stats. Too bad people don’t report to the lab after their street fights for a post-game analysis. I know a guy who missed his target, hit the wall (and through the sheet rock, a stud) and still didn’t break his hand.
I came across this great blog post by Rory Miller and it’s really spot on, so I’d like to share it:
http://chirontraining.blogspot.no/2013/09/training-and-selection.html
I believe you can develop heart or courage through a combination of training (progressive accomplishment, teaching your brain you can handle the size, weight, and aggression of your opponent) and reality-based visualization (not fantasies in which you win easily, but realistic scenarios in which you get injured and fall down and make mistakes, but in which you keep going and don’t stop). But maybe the people who are willing to make this effort are the ones who are “discovered” not selected. Or who are willing to develop it in the ring or in the higher levels of gwoh sau, learning how to fight calmly and stay in the pocket in the face of danger.