“Wing Chun simply does not work, in any fight, under any circumstances. If a guy beats your ass and he does Wing Chun, he would have beaten your ass just the same if he didn’t. If you can kick some guy’s ass and he doesn’t do WC, you could do the same if he did do WC. Every real fight turns into grappling and ends on the ground, unless it’s a KO’ing punch, no matter what form of martial art you do that’s what will happen eventually. So you’re better off training your speed, strength, punching power, evading and grappling abilities than some Chinese ballet invented by a woman, which doesn’t even help strong men win fights in MMA.”
Mike Smith in a Youtube comment
Wing Chun does not work very well when you do it wrong.
Wing Chun isn’t designed for slap fighting or friendly sparring. That’s “doing it wrong.”
When you decide to be friendly and do not to intend to hurt the opponent, then what you are doing ceases to be Wing Chun. Wing Chun, the songs say, was invented for revenge. Wing Chun is “like a knife.”
You don’t play games with your friends with a sharp knife (I hope). If you have a training knife with its point blunted and its edges dulled, its not really a knife any more. It doesn’t do what knives do, which is cut or stab.
OK – back to my catchy title premise. I discovered that the phrase “Wing Chun Does Not Work” is apparently is one of the most popular searches on Google with Wing Chun in the title (how sad is that?).
This is why.
One.
The fighter does not attempt to get a bridge before hitting.
I’ve seen people walking toward their opponent chain punching. This is only OK if you are striking someone who is sleeping standing up or they have their back to you.
Against a conscious opponent, this is telegraphing. Any competent opponent will change their angle and flank your attack. Otherwise, the advantage of Wing Chun mainly kicks in once you have a bridge. This is why (good) boxers are so dangerous. They jab, jab, jab. They are like an animal with a sharp point, like a dog that’s trying to bite you. Don’t walk into that point. Stay away from the end that bites. Catching the timing on a good jab is a hard skill to develop. Wing Chun fighter’s must develop it. It takes practice and a training partner who knows how to jab properly. Good jabs are fast and hurt if they land.
The “bridge” doesn’t have to last long (don’t get confused about what is meant by sticking). We want to be hitting. The bridge is like one of those stage rockets on the moon shots. Once it gets us out of the atmosphere, they are dropped. The job of the bridge is to control the centerline and occupy that attacking or defending hand for a tenth of a second. Get rid of it and hit.
Two.
The fighter does not “take position.”
We are not playing paddy cake here. Many people think Chi Sao is teaching them to play with the opponent’s hands – this is how they interpret “sticking.” But we need to understand that our goal is to hit the head and hit it hard (and repeatedly). It says in the songs: “Don’t chase the hand.”
The Wing Chun training model is to teach the stance, then turning (Juen Ma), then hitting, then stepping, then some of the basic hands, and then we are into Dan Chi Sao and then Chi Sao. After this early stage, the trainee may hit the wallbag sometimes (hopefully a lot) but mostly they do various drills with a Chi Sao format. Chi Sao teaches you skills for a specific situation that doesn’t last long in a real fight.
Don’t forget, Chi Sao teaches you to “change” so you can get back to hitting. When you do get a clean angle, you have to step in if you want the punch to have any power. This is hard to train right. You need to learn control so you can do the action partially and under control without hurting your opponent but do it for real in the actual fight.
Remember: Momentum = Mass x Velocity.
To get mass and velocity, we step (mass) and extend the punch (velocity). Then using ground power (structure) adds more mass to the equation.
The more body weight, the more power (thus weight classes in pro fights). Also, taking position the right way will hopefully cause the opponent to lose balance and fall backward, disrupting their capacity to respond with a structured counter-attack.
Three.
The fighter does not go in for the kill.
We need “geng ging” or controlled aggression. A Wing Chun fighter must be like an attack dog. We are not circling around, looking for our opportunity, like an MMA fight with five five-minute rounds. In real life, time is your enemy. Your opponent’s friends may arrive and decide to help them if they appear to be losing. Your opponent may decide they are losing and deploy their weapon or run off to get their gun out of the car.
How can you develop this attribute of “geng ging?”
Two main ways. One is visualization. Go all the way in your mind and let yourself get all medieval on the ass of your imaginary opponent (try not to imagine actual people – this is the wrong road to walk down). Real fights are bloody and upsetting. Imagine yourself, as in a first person shooter game, trying to talk your way out of it, then being attacked. Imagine the resulting mayhem as you lay them low. I’m a pacifist but of the Teddy Roosevelt variety. I walk softly but carry a big stick. Wing Chun is my big stick and under the right (wrong) circumstances I will wield it with impunity. Imagine the fight in violent detail – use this technique to channel your aggressive tendencies (as opposed to letting them loose in real life).
The second way to develop this attribute is through regular training with a skilled partner. As you get to know each other, you can play ever closer to the line. Let the tiger out of the box a little. This enables you to ride the line without injuring them.
Four.
The fighter ‘s skills are not reflexive.
You have to do this stuff a lot. 10,000 hours says the classic time frame (and Malcolm Gladwell in Outliers).
You have to drum these reflexes into your nervous system. You have to train your amygdala. Your body must be faster than your “brain.”
Most people lose to sucker punches. Reflexes, strategy (don’t let them get that close), and awareness are the only things that protect you from sucker punches.
Five.
The fighter can’t take a punch.
If you miss that sucker punch and have never been hit before, you are in for a nasty surprise. This surprise may make your entire fight game fall apart. I call it “discombobulation.” You may not be knocked unconscious but if you lose the picture, you will get hit a second and third time. Your go-to response to getting hit must be to violently counter-attack. It must be like a bomb going off for your attacker. Their main thought should be “whoops!” Or maybe “”oh sh…!” Ideally they won’t have enough continued consciousness to finish the thought.
Your best friend here is adrenaline. A friend of mine, a seasoned street fighter, told me to “trust in the adrenaline.” It can get you through a lot. Broken hands, knife and bullet wounds. People often only become aware of their severe injuries after the fight is over.
This is another place where “geng ging” is your friend too. Your response to being attacked must be an explosion of controlled aggression. This aggression will stimulate the release of adrenaline.
These are the usual holes people have in their Wing Chun game. The fact is, if you have the above problems, what you are doing is not really Wing Chun. Wing Chun is an attack striking style. If you don’t attack and are not prepared for a realistic response (counter-punching), then it won’t work!
Your comments are not accurate Chi sau is a sensitivity drill it isn’t a form of sparring. I certainly don’t chase hands in a real fight ever, I can take a punch, I’ve fought in many un-licensed prize fights, before taking up Wing Chun.
Not all street fight ends up on the floor unless of course you fight like a bitch.
How many fights have you been in?
None since I got out of the service at 22.
Before that, 6.
We’re talking real fights I assume?
Although frankly none of those fights were vicious except one.
Before I age 15, I used to get my ass kicked a lot, but I don’t count those as fights since I didn’t fight back much. I just caught a beating. This happened a fair amount before 15.
Paul Freeman, so all the UFC fighters are bitches? Really?
Paul was talking about street fights. UFC matches are no streetfights. If you grapple for 5 minutes on the floor in a streetfight it will get very dangerous for you. One of your opponent’s friends could decide to stomp your face till it looks like a blob fish.
Hi Steve. Do you spar full contact at your Wing Chun school? I’m a WC practitioner myself, and while I’m generally happy with my school, free, full-force sparring is something I really miss.
hey Tommy
No we don’t at the moment although it has been discussed, although I don’t think many people are doing “full contact” sparring, which I would read as going in both guns blazing and hit hard enough to knock out.
I have some friends who go to other schools (Muay Thai and MMA type places) to do friendly comparison sparring, but I don’t think any of them are doing full contact either.
Considering the facts about what happens to your brain when you bang it around, I don’t think its advisable, basically. Even most boxers and MMA people are saving it for the ring and the payday. I understand the rush but I think you can creep up to it but not put your brain on the table (except for accidents).
I did it a little at one school (on the side with friends) and it was not pleasant! And didn’t teach me anything.
At the most taxing end of our training spectrum, we cycle between Developmental drills, Chi Sao, and Gwoh Sau, backing down when we get too tangled or sloppy. We like to train clean Wing Chun actions (structure, timing, angle) under pressure. But its fast and sweaty and I think mostly safe because we all have very good control and protect our partners by taking position with our structure but not going all the way to slamming them in the head with an actual chained attack of head strikes with full structure. You just can’t sustain that sort of training IMO.
Maybe you’re talking about something a little shy of FC? You can always do a side gig training at a Muay Thai or Boxing gym and get your ya-yas out over there!
You probably think wing chun isnt effective cus you havent fought against someone whos trained in it for many years, try taking on a sifu. i respect all martial arts and all have their weaknesses and strengths, your just one of those idiots thats seen one too many ufc fights and have opinions like the rest of the moron die hard fans of ufc. Dont get me wrong, i respect and watch ufc myself but i hate this bullshit, and second of all, wing chun has really destructive techniques, designed for putting your opponent down with dirty intentions. Its a martial art designed for self defense not points and judges. anyone using wing chun in a sport combat is not using wing chun, if you take away any tools from wing chun or muay boran they are not the art. Westerners ruin martial arts, and have been since the karate fad in the 80s with their pathetic stereotyped movies.
Also, chi sao is a really effective tool to have, sensitivity training so you can feel your opponents next move, that kind of stuff does work. Not everything is going in there and throwing a couple jabs and uppercuts and hooks, some elbows, some wrestling and jiujitsu on the ground, every martial art is effective, but like a car depends on the driver, so does a martial art it depends on the one using it and how long theyve trained it for.
You really should read my article (and maybe think for a moment about the fact that I’ve studied WC for 15 years and have written hundreds of articles about it) before writing your critique and advice (and calling me an idiot — WTF dude!).
I OBVIOUSLY don’t think Wing Chun is ineffective; the article was about the top reasons I think it is made ineffective in the wrong hands.
Preaching to the choir man – try reading my site before making comments. I wrote a whole series about how awesome chi sao is and how to get better at it. Sheesh.
Hello fellow WC practitioner, i admire what you explain in the article, while acknowledging the fact that chinese martial arts take a lot of time, unlike MMA which can be quickly learned and applied with, of course, mma fighters being weaker than real martial artists.
I, however, happened to stumble upon an article on WCfightclub.com by one of sifu Allan Lee’s students, and would like your opinion on it: http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=57
Thanks in advance.
Hi Eli
Thanks for the link. I agree with it for the most part.
Especially the “everyone want’s instant kung fu and no one wants to work hard” part.
As I’ve said elsewhere, if there was a magic sauce, everyone would take it or those who did take it would be readily apparent, and not hiding in the bushes talking shit.
I’m not sure sure about this “complete system” versus “empty shell” stuff. I hear a lot of this kind of talk (especially from William Cheung students) and find it to be a little silly. On the other hand, I do think Ip Man was a quirky guy and didn’t suffer fools and you had to TAKE the information from him. Many Chinese kung fu teachers are like this and I think to some degree its a cultural thing. They make you work for it.
Ultimately, I agree that MMA (really Muay Thai or Kickboxing) is quicker to learn (6 mos – a year to learn the system) and it especially teaches aggression and how to get hit, but I think Wing Chun is a more sophisticated approach and ultimately, its really a WAY OF THINKING more than a fighting system or art. Its a set of rules for thinking critically about fighting and it has come to some conclusions (centerline, sun fist) which not all agree with but I think the proof is in the pudding. But it is central to Wing Chun that you question assumptions and test your skills yourself — don’t take it on authority. This is radical for Asian martial arts!
I’ve trained with people who are former MMA and boxers in my teachers school and when they see him (and the senior students) they stick around. Wing Chun tells you to test assumptions yourself. I think it is impossible to make generalizations about the art (Wing Chun will beat boxing or whatever) — each fighter takes the tools and makes them work for them. But it is hard work and takes a long time — I’d say three to five years of hard work to learn the complete system. But then you have a lifelong reflex you can preserve and you will be a fighter. Can you take Jon Jones or Manny Pacquiao? That’s unrealistic. Can you take “a trained fighter or a enraged, tough, and/or savvy street fighter?” See my article “A Gentleman’s Art.” Wing Chun is to some degree about learning high level fighting skills without getting the shit beat out of you every day. I think a Wing Chun fighter can handle people you might describe like that. I could. My teacher could. A number of my kung fu brothers could. What is the percentage of people I’ve trained with I think I could say that about? Less than a few percent. But I think you can say that about any approach to fighting (MMA, boxing, etc). Most trainees are not that dedicated and thus not that good. Most people drop out in the first 6 months to a year. Really the first week or two.
Would we win? This is a case by case, moment by moment call. I also have Escrima, JuJitsu, and Boxing to call on – Wing Chun is whatever works!
The author knows what he is talking about. I have taken Wing Chun for years, then took 2 years off to just go and fight anybody. Lost many times, learned a lot. The article is right on the money.
I am kind of sick and tired of people saying WC sucks “BE-cause, there is no UFC WC champion”.
WC is a fighting system, it is a very good one but it is not perfect. It also is not “in tune” with cage fighting against a very trained martial artists where gloves are worn and rules are in place.
If you think that in a real fight (why do we call it “street”? my worst one was in a pub, another one was in a theater.) you can anaconda someone, well… good luck.
WC is a great system only if you train right. what makes it great is that with little conditioning and soft core training you can give a woman the ability to defend herself. That it is why it is great! not when a super human athlete is facing another super human athlete in a ring, forget that.
WC is not The Perfect martial art, but it is a very good one
People frame these arguments with some weird assumptions.
Can a fighting technology improve your chances of surviving a rape or assault? How many people need to face off in a ring? Most people want some physical fitness, some social interaction, and to improve their fighting skills in a survival situation. I think Wing Chun (and many other styles) is beset with problems (deluded expectations, no emphasis on conditioning or strength, lack of real application of the system, lack of aggression) but none of that says anything about the truth of the underlying ideas. Wing Chun will get you where you want to go if you think it over and apply the principles. And work hard.